Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome to the Protein Production Technology International podcast. We explore the latest advancements in alternative proteins, from cultured meats to plant-based proteins. 0:11 We talk to experts and innovators who are working towards a more sustainable, efficient and kind protein system. Join us as we dive into the exciting possibilities of the alternative protein industry. 0:25 Welcome everyone, and thank you for joining today's session in partnership with Pall Corporation. Uh, it's great to see so many people with us once again. 0:33 Strong turnout, and a warm welcome to both our regular attendees and those joining us for the very first time. 0:38 For anybody new to our community, Protein Production Technology International is the world's leading digital hub for the alternative protein industry. 0:45 We connect the dots across the entire value chain, from early stage research and process development through to commercial scale-up and market launch. 0:53 We do that through daily news coverage, weekly newsletters, our quarterly B2B magazine, monthly webinars, regular podcasts, and of course, our global conferences and exhibitions. 1:04 And speaking of events, be sure to mark your calendars for the Future of Protein Production Conference taking place next week on the twenty-ninth and thirtieth of October at the RAI in Amsterdam. 1:14 We're bringing together more than one hundred speakers, over fifty exhibitors and around one thousand attendees for what's set to be one of the industry's must-attend events of the year. 1:23 The full agenda and speaker line-up are now live, so if you'd like to join us as a conference delegate or even attend the free exhibition to see the latest technologies on offer, visit www.futureofproteinproduction.com for all of the details. 1:37 Now on to today's topic. Over the past few years, we've seen extraordinary innovation in how proteins are produced from plants, microbes and precision fermentation systems. 1:47 But no matter how groundbreaking the upstream science is, it's often downstream processing that determines whether a product can succeed commercially. That's why today's conversation is so important. 1:57 This is where cost, consistency and sustainability converge, and where the difference between a promising pilot and a profitable process is often made. 2:06 Downstream operations are not just a technical step, they're a strategic lever. 2:09 They influence everything from ingredient functionality and purity, to energy and water use, to the ultimate taste and texture that reaches consumers. 2:18 And the reality is that as the alternative protein sector scales, these downstream decisions are defining competitiveness. Membrane separation, purification, drying, these aren't just engineering details anymore. 2:30 They're central to delivering the next generation of sustainable, functional and affordable protein ingredients. It's a big conversation, and we have the perfect panel to delve deeper into the final details. 2:41 So who are they? We have Stephanie Joseph and David Dejusty from Pall Corporation, and we must thank Pall Corporation for being today's sponsor and for making all of this happen. 2:51 Um, we're delighted to welcome Rene Froois from NIZO for the first time to the platform. A big welcome to Antoine Charbonneau, uh, from Aplexion. 2:59 And there's Daniel Kennedy from Ingredion, representing the perspective of a global ingredient leader scaling functional proteins to commercial reality. 3:07 And finally, we have Silvia Surani from Lallemand Bioingredients, who will give us a glimpse of how yeast proteins are processed for nutrition, sustainability and functionality across global markets. 3:18 Together, they'll examine how next-generation downstream processes are reshaping the economics and performance of protein production, and where the biggest opportunities now lie for sustainable growth. 3:30 Before we get started, though, for everybody tuning in, just a quick reminder, we're hoping to have some time for your questions over the course of the next hour. 3:36 Um, please use the Q&A tab in the bottom right-hand side of your screen to submit them. I'll do my best to address them either towards the end of the session or, if appropriate, during the discussion itself. 3:47 If possible, try to avoid posting your questions in the general chat, as there's a very good chance that I will miss them. 3:53 Um, we'll begin with a very short presentation from Stephanie Joseph at Pall Corporation, and then we'll move into the discussion. So Stephanie, the floor is all yours to get us going. 4:03 Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you to PBTI for organizing today's webinar and, uh, to you all for joining. I'm Stephanie Joseph, uh, global marketing, uh, manager for food and alternative protein at Pall. 4:17 Today I will be sharing how advanced downstream processes are enabling more sustainable and functional protein production. Here is what we will cover today. 4:27 A brief introduction first to Pall Corporation, the growing opportunity in alternative proteins, our downstream processing solutions, and real-world applications that demonstrate their impact. 4:41 So Pall is part of Danaher, a global science and technology innovator, including several operating companies, as you see on the screen, contributing to a combined market of over twenty-three billion dollars. 4:55 Within Danaher Pall Life Science segment-- Danaher Life Science segment, Pall plays a key role in all type of industries, including aeronautics, microelectronics, energy, fuels and chemicals, and of course, food and beverage. 5:10 Our technologies serve both traditional markets such as wine, beer and a wide range of food ingredients. As well as emerging novel food sectors. 5:21 This includes upcycling, uh, but to recover valuable proteins from side streams, protein extraction from plants, precision fermentation and cellular agriculture. 5:33 By enabling these alternative protein applications, we help producers meet the increasing demand for sustainable and functional food ingredient. 5:44 This chart illustrates how improve, improved purity and functionality in alternative proteins can significantly increase their market value. The higher the functionality, the higher the price per kilogram. 5:59 We see here that potato isolates can be valorized up to twenty dollars per kilogramAnd even higher for biopeptides, over fifty dollars per kilograms, driven by their high functionality. 6:14 So let's now explore Pall's solutions for downstream processing. Our end-to-end offering spans clarification, purification, and final filtration. We also provide process control to ensure consistent high quality output. 6:29 Whether it's plant-based protein extraction or upcycling or fermentation-derived proteins, we offer the same type of technologies for downstream processing. 6:42 As the very first step, clarification, our Pall Membralog GPIC system will ensure maximum protein transmission, which is crucial, and reduce CapEx. 6:54 From there, we proceed with concentration with UF or NF, uh, ultrafiltration or nano filtration. 7:01 And optionally, we can integrate a protein fractionation step using chromatography, enabling here the separation of various protein types and various functionalities. 7:13 Clarification is the most critical step in protein recovery. The challenge here is to maximize yield while minimizing CapEx and OpEx. 7:24 So here today, I'm excited to introduce our latest innovation, which is a real game changer. It's the Membralog GPIC ceramic membrane system. 7:33 This innovation combines advanced membrane design with proven ceramic technology to enhance filtration performance. This slide shows the structure of our ceramic membranes. 7:46 It consists of a support made from alumina grains, providing mechanical strength and robustness and high porosity. It's twelve micron, which means three times greater than other ceramics membranes. 8:04 And the filtration layers on the surface with pore size from ten nanometers to one point four micron. So now let's describe the gradient permeability technology. GP stands for gradient permeability. 8:19 The GP membrane is designed to optimize the transfer of macromolecules across the microfiltration membrane. 8:27 With traditional ceramic membranes, which is what you see on the screen on the left, the traditional ceramic membranes, the natural pressure drop creates asymmetric transmembrane pressure, TMP, from the inlet to the outlet of the flow channel. 8:45 To compensate this TMP decrease, Membralog's GP membranes have a longitudinal permeability gradient, which is built into the support structure without modification of the filtration layer. 9:01 It's really the support structure which is modified to create with this gradient. 9:07 And this design ensure a stable microfiltration regime all along the membrane, resulting in thirty percent higher protein transmission with minimal protein denaturation. 9:19 Combining now the GP with the innovative intermingled channel design, the IC design, we achieve a remarkable forty-three percent increase in membrane surface area. 9:34 This innovative geometry allow more channels to be packed into the same element size, providing more filtration capacity without increasing the module footprint, which is ideal for scaling up without expanding plant size, and it delivers a substantial reduction in capital expenditure. 9:56 With up to ninety-five percent protein transmission and above thirty percent lower CapEx and OpEx, this combination of those two proven technologies, the GP and the IC, our micro-- our microfiltration systems offer compact, consistent, and sustainable solutions for large scale protein production with optimized older volumes, lower water, and chemical usage, 10:25 making the first step of this downstream process be both effective and economical. 10:31 Our Membralog's membranes are manufactured in Bazet in France with more than forty years of know-how, ensuring high quality production and supply chain reliability. You are more than welcome to visit this site. 10:43 It's very interesting, and we will offer you a, a nice trip. So I will present now different applications where we have been successful with our GP technology. 10:53 GPIC excels in challenging environments, handling high solid, high viscosity, and aggressive cleaning protocols with an ability to handle process deviations, making it ideal for industries facing environmental and productivity pressures. 11:13 It is the best alternative solutions to replace traditional clarification technologies like DE. DE stands for diatomaceous earth filters or centrifuge or traditional cross-flow systems. 11:28 So here are some successful applications. In precision fermentation or enzymes production, for example, where cross-flow systems are required to repl-place DE filters to avoid the GMOs exposure. 11:42 Our first success in upcycling was ten years ago with potato protein recovery. Please can you share slide twenty-two, Nina? 11:52 So here you see the, um, potato juice before and after clarification, where we succeed in removing more than ninety-nine percent of suspended solids, more than three log of bioburden reduction, while transmitting a maximum of protein above ninety-five percent. 12:13 Okay. SoHere is another, uh, uh, upcycling applications where we succeeded with brewer spent grain valorization, so BSG valorization. Uh, slide twenty-three, Nina, please. 12:29 So this success story is with EverGrain from ABI, AB InBev. It has been published in two thousand twenty-two. They produce the EverPro product. 12:40 Uh, it's a rich barley protein isolate with more than eighty-five percent protein content, and it's a highly soluble, uh, isolate. So it's what make it very interesting to integrate it in beverages. 12:55 So you see here that in both cases, GP, GP, uh, technology consistently delivers from all the case thirty percent higher transmission than standard ceramic membranes and more than ten years membrane life. 13:10 And this higher transmission by thirty percent justify the return on investment in all those cases, while our customers were about to stop the project because the ROI was not enough. 13:21 So it's really a game changer, the GP technology, for this type of, uh, challenging, uh, transmission, uh, situation. 13:31 We are proud to be recognized as a technology leader by the Plant-Based Food Industry Association at the two thousand twenty-four summit in New Delhi. 13:41 Our visibility in the innovation, uh, ecosystem continues to grow with our presence at MISTA in California, Bridge to Food, uh, and PPTI, of course. 13:52 I thank you for your att-attention, and, uh, I look forward to your questions and to exploring how I can support your pro-- your protein production goals. Um, Stephanie, thank you very much for that. 14:02 I don't know what that technical fault were there. I've never seen that message before. Uh, that was a really nice look at how, uh, Pall is applying its technologies in the, uh, alternative protein space. 14:10 Pall, of course, has decades, uh, of experience in separation and filtration across industries like biotech and food. 14:16 So how are those core capabilities being translated, uh, to meet the challenges of downstream processing, uh, in alternative proteins? 14:26 Um, Pall's legacy in separation and filtrations spanning over forty years, uh, in milk fractionation and membrane innovation directly support our approach, uh, to alternative proteins. 14:40 Our Membralox ceramic membranes have evolved to address the unique, uh, complexities of alternative proteins feeds, whether from plant extraction, fermentation, or upcycling. 14:52 These feeds are often challenging mixtures requiring reliable, consistent recovery of target proteins. We always manage to pilot test on-site to provide customized solutions. 15:07 Um, by leveraging our expertise and experience in exploring and testing multiple viable feeds, we innovate and design solutions, integrating all required solutions from, uh, external partnerships if not available within Pall. 15:25 So Davide, we've just heard how Pall's life sciences background is informing innovation in food proteins. 15:31 Are you able to explain what makes that, uh, GPIC ceramic membrane approach, um, different from conventional clarification systems? I know Stephanie touched on it, but why is that such a step forward? Sure. 15:43 Uh, I mean, as Stephanie just presented, a newly launched GPIC membrane, uh, system, uh, from Pall does represent a significant advancement in clarification technology. 15:52 The conve-conventional clarification methods often suffer from low transmission rates of target biomedicals due to the uneven gel layer formation, which leads to rapid fouling and reduced process efficiency. 16:05 So what GPIC does is addressing this challenge through the unique graded outperformability design. And, uh, and this is done by engineering the flux profile across the whole membrane. 16:17 But what GIP does, again, is promoting uniform gel layer formation, and these optimize fouling distribution and enables higher transmission of valuable, uh, components upstream of concentration step. 16:29 So these result in a robust ceramic-based solution that delivers longer filtration cycles, improved product recovery, and consistent performance. 16:39 So this is what is making GPIC the, the game changer within for bioprocessing application. Mm-hmm. 16:46 A-and following on from that, Davide, membranes can sometimes have a, a bit of a reputation for being, uh, complex or even high-maintenance. 16:53 From your experience, what are some of the most common misconceptions that companies have, um, about ceramic membrane technologies? Yeah. You know what? One of the biggest... Yeah. 17:02 One of the biggest misconceptions I hear about ceramics is that they're too expensive or too rigid for bioprocessing, but that's kind of an outdated thinking, I would say. With... 17:13 I mean, especially with these, you know, this is also a good representation of what the GPIC membrane we, we were seeing, how the smart design can completely change this value in equation. 17:24 I mean, again, graded outperformability helps control... helping control gel layer formation, less fouling, better transmission. 17:32 And when you combine this with the IC, the intermingled channel that shows Stephanie in the presentation before, which packs more, um, membrane surface into a smaller footprint, you get more through, more throughput with fewer modules. 17:46 So it's not just better performance, it's real savings. It gets smaller skids, lower buffer and water usage, and longer run times, and, and that all add up to reduced CapEx and OpEx. 17:59 So instead of being a cost burden, the ceramic membrane solution like this will become a strategic advantage in the modern bioprocessing. Mm-hmm. Re-Rene, you work closely with companies optimizing... 18:11 At NiZo, you work closely with companies optimizing everything fromPlant proteins to fermented ingredients. 18:17 From your perspective, what kind of impact are these membrane-based solutions having on, on, on ingredient quality, whether that's taste, purity or, or overall functionality? 18:27 Yeah, that, that's a very good question indeed. 18:29 Uh, so within the protein transition, a lot is, uh, is, is going on and, and it's going on at a extremely high pace, and we see that membrane filtration is, uh, uh, although it's an, 18:40 I wouldn't say an, an old technology, an existing technology, it's super powerful. 18:45 And so, um, uh, examples are, uh, um, the plant proteins that suffer from, let's say, a bad mouthfeel, and that is sometimes due to components like polyphenols. So removing polyphenols very specifically, 18:59 uh, um, by membranes. Um, removal of specific flavor molecules, we have seen that, uh, all over the place. Uh, it's all about the balance and then, you know, improve the taste. Functionality changes. 19:14 So there are really nice examples where membrane technology, once applied to an existing, uh, protein stream, delivers another functionality and then let's say where, for example, uh, uh, acid precipitation is, is, is applied. 19:29 So you can really target and you can tailor functionality, um, and also purity or let's say yield, uh, is very much, uh, an issue. 19:40 As new kids come on the block and new products are being introduced, you see there is a big pressure on the existing, uh, proteins to be, uh, yeah, to be competitive. 19:50 So it's all about yield and taste, and it's an extremely powerful technology. Mm-hmm. Daniel, Ingredient, um, you've made extremely big strides in improving the flavor and functionality of your pulse-based proteins. 20:02 Can you tell us a little bit more about your deflavoring technology? What makes that approach different, and how does it influence downstream processes later on? Yeah. It's a great question, Nick. 20:12 You know, I, I think first we start with the pulses themselves, you know, to say like you-- what is it that we're gonna have to encounter? And then, you know, I, I think what we've, 20:22 for better or for worse, have put clean label guidelines on top of our protein, uh, which really, you know, presses the mechanical processing as opposed to anything that would be chemical. 20:32 So I think we wanna be defensible when it comes to labeling, um, which is kind of unique. Um, but you know, at the same time, it presents new challenges, new opportunities to, to, to really change the paradigm. 20:43 Um, so we're not, you know, adding chemicals that are gonna add challenges from a labeling or a, you know, product, uh, perception. And then also focusing, you know, on the end application as well. 20:55 You know, I think Rene had mentioned it, you know, texture is part of that experience. Um, and given the fact that we have a ton of experience on our starch side, uh, working with 21:06 the textural experience and then applying that thought process to the protein as well, so that texture, not just flavor, are part of that, that overall experience. 21:16 And from your experience, how do you balance that clean, um, flavor profiles with maintaining the nutritional and functional properties that formulators are, are depending on? Yeah. 21:26 Um, so I, I think it is really coming to what's the outcome that they want and thinking holistically. 21:32 You know, far too often everybody looks at a hero ingredient or right now everybody says, "I want as much protein as possible," but not thinking about the pleasure ability, what the consumer really w- needs. 21:42 And so sometimes we do take a, a dial back and say, "What is it that the consumer can actually tolerate versus what's the marketability you're trying to achieve?" 21:50 And then, you know, being holistic in the approach, and so sometimes is it interactions with other proteins that, that we have to think about when we're processing. So, you know, does it mean 22:02 powder characteristics that are, are akin to something that would help appease it? So a lot of times, peadiacast comes into play. 22:09 So are we, are we working with, you know, pea and rice or soy and something else to achieve the, the end outcome, uh, that the consumer's looking for? Mm-hmm. 22:20 Silvia, um, at Lallemand Bioingredients, you're focused on non-functional proteins such as, uh, uh, Engivita HiPro, which we wrote about, um, in our latest edition, where nutritional value and sustainability take precedence. 22:31 How does that focus shape your downstream design, and where are you finding the biggest opportunities to simplify or im-improve efficiency? 22:40 Um, so as you see, uh, we work at the moment, uh, with the non-functional, meaning non-rheologically functional protein. So, uh, we have, uh, less, uh, headaches, uh, if you like. 22:53 When we downstream, uh, we can use, um, uh, pH, uh, uh, differentiation or temperature to separate the, the part of, uh, the biomass that we are interested in. 23:07 Of course, when, uh, you are still looking for functionality of some of the, uh, native protein, uh, characteristics, uh, those cannot be applied so easily. 23:16 So I think in, in that sense, uh, we have an advantage, uh, if you look at the simplification of the downstream. But of course, we also need to look at yield and, and making the process sustainable. 23:29 So, uh, what we often do, um, in every type of production, including this one of, uh, our yeast protein, is, uh, to valorize other streams. 23:38 So, uh, we have, uh, an-- in the upstream, uh, the vinasses that can be used as a biofertilizer, and going downstream, we can, um, still have, uh, different products that are, uh, produced in the same, uh, type of, uh, production, like yeast extract or cell walls that can be used in animal nutrition. 23:59 Um, so, so this is, uh, where our engineer focus when we are designing, uh, a, a new product production. So we have the core product, but also a very interesting, uh, collateral. 24:11 And, um, yeah, this is, uh, I believe what, what makes our, uh, product sustainable in the long run.Uh-huh. 24:20 Antoine, in our prep calls, um, you told me about, um, Apendixion's resin-based purification systems, which combine pharma-grade, um, precision with food-scale practicality. 24:29 When you're working with complex, um, fermentation feeds full of side products or, or color compounds, how do the ab- absorption resins help clean up those streams, um, without sacrificing factors such as yield or taste? 24:43 Yeah, very, very important indeed. You, you highlighted well the fact that we historically come from the two worlds, right? The food and bio and the, and the pharma. 24:52 Um, I'm going to bounce back a bit to what was said before. 24:56 The, the key, um, the key is really to look at the family of impurities that need to be removed and, uh, and basically you wanna cut what hurts the flavor without, uh, touching the protein. 25:09 So it's really a step-by-step approach, and, uh, if I would take an image, you start really with a heavy axe, uh, which is a clarification, you know, that you, you take the big chunk of what needs to be removed, and then down the line, your weapon blade is getting thinner and sharper, and every family of impurity has a strategy to be applied for in order to get there. 25:31 Mm-hmm. René, um, drying, it's one of the most energy-intensive stages of protein production, so how is NIZO, um, approaching that challenge? 25:40 We talked a little bit about this in our, um, tech check, particularly around reaching higher dry matter levels before drying or using membranes for pre-concentration. 25:49 Uh, a-and what kind of energy or cost savings can companies expect from optimizing that part of the process? Yeah, so y-you're right. 25:57 So drying is, uh, I-I think by far the most, uh, energy-consuming part in, uh, in most production processes, uh, for protein ingredients. 26:07 Um, so basically what you would like to achieve is a high dry matter content before you start drying, as high as possible, uh, but also as functional as possible. 26:19 So, uh, I think, um, so if you can concentrate the, the, the, the flow before drying a little bit, then the cost of drying is almost ten times higher than what you, um, than what you can, uh, expect while, 26:36 um, while concentrating. So membrane filtration is, is really also an option to, uh, to increase the dry matter whilst keeping the viscosity down because that's basically the most harmful thing. 26:47 So we are working really hard at trying to understand why is viscosity high? How can you bring that down? 26:53 And we have really nice examples where, for example, uh, membrane filtration is really more powerful than, for example, uh, uh, a-acid precipitation. Mm-hmm. 27:03 So you might consider your whole process, uh, in the end because the energy-consuming part in the end is really what, uh, will determine a major part of your cost. 27:13 And we believe that other technology, but we feel that membrane tech-technology is really powerful in there to, uh, reduce cost. Yeah. 27:22 And, and Davide, sustainability, that's also increasingly being built into process design from the, from the outset. 27:27 So from your technical perspective, where can downstream setups have the biggest impact, whether that's, uh, reducing water or energy use, minimizing waste even, or improving, improving resource efficiency? 27:40 Yeah, I mean, sustainability has to start with the smart design. A-and, and, and, and in this, filtration will... plays a critical role. I mean, a proper design 27:50 and sizing study can dramatically reduce environmental footprint from, from, I would say, from day one. 27:56 So this is why we try to accomplish through continuous innovation in order to deliver high performance clarification with a significantly reduced filtration surface area. 28:08 So that means less water, fewer chemicals, lower installed power requirements. Uh, the, the results of that has to be a leaner, more efficient process that minimize waste generation and slashes, uh, operational expenses. 28:21 Um- Mm-hmm... so while, while optimizing resource and improving OpEx, of course, is a, is the goal, uh, we still need to meet the sustainability goals without compromising quality or throughput. 28:33 Um, so it's a, it's a smart way to improve OpEx while aligning, uh, with clean label and eco-conscious, let's say, uh, production values. Mm-hmm. 28:44 And Silvia, I know this from our interview a few months ago, Lallemand works across multiple, um, production platforms from biomass to precision fermentation. 28:51 Are there certain areas where you're seeing the greatest potential for efficiency gains, whether that's, again, energy reduction or re-resource recovery or, or process simplification? 29:02 So, uh, in Lallemand Bioingredients, as you say, we have, uh, different, uh, let's call them business teams. So, um, we are working with biomass. Uh, we are producing, uh, enzymes. 29:14 Uh, um, we, with the acquisition of, uh, the Evolva business, we are also producing, uh, flavors by biotechnology fermentation. Uh, so each, uh, plant is designed specifically for the products we are working with. 29:32 So, uh, we can apply different technologies and optimize those, uh, one by one, uh, looking at, uh, the next generation type of filtration or, uh, chromatography or, um, um, 29:47 uh, like ultrafiltration, depending on the product. So, uh, everything is, uh, well-designed since the beginning. Uh, we have team that can take care of the specific, uh, downstream. 30:00 Uh, so this is how, uh, we, uh, we optimize, uh, each of those. Basically, we are, uh, really, um, how to say, uh, dedicating teams to the specific, uh, products. 30:13 This is why, uh, we have created then different, uh, business team within the business unit of, uh, Lallemand Bioingredients. We are, uh, uh, now very professional, uh, in, in what we do.Mm-hmm. 30:25 I can see there's, um, lots of questions coming in already from the audience, so I'm gonna see if I can get to a few of those in a second. 30:31 Stephanie, as small companies move from pilot to commercial scale, flexibility, that becomes critical as well. 30:37 So what's your advice for designing downstream systems that can scale efficiently without locking companies into, uh, rigid configurations? Yeah. Flexibility is key. 30:48 Um, we recommend modular systems designs, uh, that will allow for easy adaptation as, um, product portfolio evolve or, or volume increase. 31:01 Um, our, our systems, GPSC systems a- and integrated process controls can be designed to enable facilities to switch between different protein sources and formats. 31:12 Uh, and this flexibility helps companies respond quickly to, to market changes and, uh, and innovation opportunities. Mm-hmm. 31:22 Daniel, Ingredion, you're already operating at commercial scale, so what lessons have you learned in keeping those systems both economically viable and sustainable? 31:30 Are, are there any process optimizations, um, that have made the biggest difference in, in energy cost or, or efficiency? 31:38 So I, I would say it's really focusing on the whole pea, and then when we deconstruct that or deconstruct a pulse, you know, what are we doing with... 31:47 You know, the starch and protein are, are the givens, but I think it's really finding value in those side streams. 31:53 You know, I think anytime when you talk about cost efficiency, something that goes down the drain that has value to somebody is a, is a lost opportunity, and then it also impacts your efficiency. 32:03 So I-- the lessons I would say is like, you know, I think everybody was so excited about the protein and starch components, but it's these other things that re-- have really made the difference. 32:11 And so it's creating markets for those side streams, thinking about future opportunities to turn those star- side streams into greater value is really the key for us. 32:22 And so right now, you know, I think our, our, our focus is on the protein and is the fiber, uh, uh, the, the starch, the fiber, some of the oils, some of the soluble proteins that are not captured right now are really gonna make the difference in the future. 32:36 So really having that whole pulse, uh, approach is, is kind of the best way to look at it. And then how do you design a plant around that, um, both today and in the future? Mm-hmm. 32:48 Antoine, um, in our prep call, um, you talked about many startups still treating, um, downstream purification as a bit of a black box, a term I liked. 32:56 Um, from your perspective, from where you're standing, what are the biggest misconceptions you see when companies try to scale from lab to pilot or even industrial scale? Yeah. 33:05 Um, a-and that's-- what I'm gonna say is especially true in the ferm- precision fermentation world. I would say the very first big- Oh. Have we lost Antoine there? No. Well, we'll come- 33:24 I will say it- Oh, we've got you still. Oh, sorry. Am I back? Yeah. Yeah, you're back. Sorry. Just a little... That-- It's that gremlin again. 33:32 The, the very first misconception I see would, would be, um, about thinking that the-- once your USP settles, most of the job is done, uh, which is actually not the case. You're probably halfway there, you know. 33:45 Um, another one I would, another one I would say is about, uh, the, the, the type of technology. Uh, chromatography is very often put aside because people think it's for pharma, it's for-- it's expensive. 33:57 It's not the case. We have massive chromatographic system working on commodities today, like mother liquor, like, uh, uh, treating sugar side products. 34:07 And, uh, a third one I would say is about, um, uh, the operating costs, the utilities. Very often, it's put in the box of we will see later. 34:16 But as René was saying, for energy, you know, and, uh, and everything linked to water consumption, chemicals, these are topics that need, need to be addressed, uh, for the early stage. Mm-hmm. 34:28 Uh, and how do you approach sequencing, s-so from modeling and pilot trials to full techno-economic validation to make sure that the process is truly ready for commercial rollout? Mm. 34:39 The, the very good news I have for people who are developing processes right now is that the DSP in general scales up way better than the USP part. Again, I'm really referring to the, the, the fermentation folks here. 34:53 Um, you know that for the USP, the fermentation part, you very often have to do this one to ten scale five, six times until you can finally get there. 35:03 Uh, with DSP technologies, you l- you do some early trials at bench scale, and then you already, thanks to the, thanks to the, the simulation tool, the in silico calculation, you already have some pretty good ideas of what's going to happen at industrial scale. 35:19 Then you go to the pilot, and at the end of your pilot, I'm talking just a few weeks of trials, you already have a firm and settled design. Mm-hmm. René, y-you've helped a lot of companies navigate that, that transition. 35:31 So what are some, some of the common pitfalls that you see, uh, in early stage process design? And what can teams do to avoid making those before scaling up? Yeah. That's a, that's a very good question. 35:42 So i-in all honesty, what we, what we actually see a lot is that in, um, that companies, uh, when they start in a, in, in a, uh, new process, they in the end fix something. 35:54 So it's end-of-pipe solutions rather than, uh, taking it from a holistic point of view, and I know that's extremely difficult. 36:01 So to really understand scalability when you are working on bench or pilot skill, the, the-- it is difficult, but that's super necessary. 36:11 So we've seen a lot of companies that are tweaking while they are developing a process, and even if they are in the pilot skill, as... Sorry, I have to move because my light. 36:20 Um, as, uh, uh, Antoine was saying, um, th-That's, that's the biggest pitfall I think that is around. People really underestimate what it means to have a unit operation, 36:37 uh, running smoothly or running somewhat smoothly and then in the end costing a lot of money, like for example, the drying part. So thinking it all through, it, it's, it's really not easy. That's the big major pitfall. 36:50 And Davide, from the technology side, are there specific design principles or process controls that can help 36:56 de-risk, I guess, that journey from prototype to production, especially in areas like membrane fouling, recovery rates or, or overall yield? Yeah. I mean, yeah. 37:06 I, I mean, this is reinforcing what Renee and Antoine just, just touched on. Um, I would say piloting with our customers is usually the key to, to success in this case. 37:15 I mean, this allows both us and them to get a clear understanding of the behavior of, of the product with our technology, starting from the bench test through the real pilot. 37:26 A-and from that point, we can work together and tailor the needs down to every detail to get the best out of it. 37:32 Uh, I mean, process condition that are key, uh, uh, to, to scaling up success like, like flux, TMP, DCF concentrations, process repeatability, CIP studies. I mean, all of, all of these 37:45 are very important parts of the interaction that we have with our customers, so... A-and then modularity. Uh, modularity, this is also often a, a key point for, for, for scale up. 37:57 A-and being able to start small, but having the confidence to add exponentially is, is a, is a great, great feature. Mm-hmm. Now, digital tools, they're beginning to transform how we design and optimize processes. 38:09 Antoine, how close are we to using digital twins or, or AI models to simulate downstream purification? 38:14 Think predicting separation efficiency or fouling behavior, as I mentioned before, or even resin lifetime between trials. Um, so Nick, we are not close anymore. Uh, it's a reality today. 38:28 Uh, the, the very tools that, that you are talking about have been developed in our company for the past ten, fifteen years. That's about my age in this company, actually. 38:37 So I saw the, I saw the evolution along the time. And as we speak, our Perform four point zero tool, uh, is used daily basis, uh, in our lab. 38:46 So since the full implementation, we are talking now about fifty percent reduction time for the DoE, uh, process development time. 38:56 And, uh, so on top of that, you, you have operators and, and the people in the lab that completely take control and ownership of the process. 39:04 You know, when I joined, it was more like, uh, you ask the old guy who knows, "Tweak this, tweak that," and that will do, and you understand nothing on what's going on. 39:11 Now, you have a, a system that is predicting, helping you to move along to get there and explaining you why. It's, it's, it's, it's fascinating. 39:20 A-and how are those capabilities changing the way that production teams operate day-to-day once, once those systems are fully integrated? So it's already changing the way our equipment is being operated, uh, worldwide. 39:34 Um, there is really a, a big demand and a boom on this right now. Um, so there is the p- the Perform four point zero I was talking about. Now we... 39:42 Y-you can imagine that if we use it in the lab, we also use it at, at scale. 39:46 And, um, so for the operators, it's also a big game changer because you have a, a digital twin and expert that is, is constantly here and helping you, guiding you to get there. 39:57 And you have another side of the digital tools that we work a lot on. It's our product Run four point zero, which is more of a health check. 40:04 It's more like a mechanical and hydraulic constant check of the system and guiding the opera- the operators, telling them, "Hey, something might be going wrong here. You should do this, this, this and that." 40:18 So you are entering a world where the operators are working more in a preventive mode rather than a, "Oh, something went bad," and it's troubleshooting mode. Mm-hmm. 40:30 Uh, on that theme, actually, Stephanie Pal, you're at the forefront of process automation. 40:34 Are you seeing your customers using AI or real-time analytics to im- prove consistency or detect fouling or even reduce downtime in those operations, those membrane operations? Yes. 40:46 Uh, as Antoine said, we see increasing adoption of digital tools and, and real-time ana- analytics. 40:52 Uh, these technologies enable predictive maintenance, uh, uh, early detection of membrane fouling, and the dynamic process optimization. 41:02 Um, we already, uh, offer IoT, Internet of Things, uh, options on several systems, uh, platforms at Pall. Uh, being part of Danaher as well, uh, we have a lot of opcos like Phenomenex, Beckman, Sciex, and others. 41:19 And as you can imagine, uh, we have room to be very creative for innovations for this, uh, analytical online measurement as well. So yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's a trend and, uh, we are ready for that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 41:33 I'm gonna take a couple of questions now from the audience. Um, so this is the, uh, fun part where you have to put your hand up like that. Uh, you can use your virtual hand as well if you wish. 41:41 Uh, this is from Benjamin Schuler. Uh, he says, "My worries with filtration is usually absorption of the proteins towards the filtration material. Is this a concern with this new development?" 41:52 So who's gonna put their hand up? I guess that's gonna be a Pall, Pall person. Davide, do you want to handle it? Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean, uh, we, we don't see... This is not, um... 42:03 We can see absorption when, when you, when you're w-wo-working with the, with the, with flat sheet or with, with cartridges. 42:09 I mean, we do not see absorption happening when we're working with membranes, with, with ceramic membranes. So this, I would say this is not, this should not be a concern. Um, and, uh, and, uh, a good way to do it, it... 42:23 Happy to, to, to, to receive your inquiry and, and we can work on, on a-Bench test, a, a quick in and out, and go, no go test will, will clarify these, these, these ob- these, uh, doubts. 42:36 Uh, speaking of which, Anil Babu, uh, he says, "We're working on, uh, lactoferrin protein extraction from skimmed milk." 42:43 It's just a statement, so I'm sure, Anil, if you get in touch with Davide or Stephanie afterwards, they'll be glad to work with you. Uh, this is, uh, Michelle De Lima Branco. 42:51 Um, what are the weaknesses for membrane processes? Does it fit for all types of protein? Do you have any use cases with myoproteins, for instance? I mean, it, it really depends what is the goal. What is the goal? 43:06 Where are we going? Are we going with the flour? Are we going with the concentration? Or are we at the isolate, uh, point? It, it really depends on what is the final goal that we need to reach. 43:16 So, uh, if we are looking into flour production, I mean, members are not even, even involved. I mean, you, you're- you, you, you can use as the classic centrifugation ways and, and, and that will be... that will make it. 43:29 If you're starting to... If you're focusing on increasing the value of your product and going into concentration, then clarification is a key, is a key, uh, product to use. And then 43:42 increasing even more and going into isolate when you're looking into functional ingredients, then you're doing clarification, you're doing ultrafiltration for concentration, and you're doing, most likely, uh, chromatography. 43:53 So this is a, this is a, you know, uh, it really depends on what the final goal is. 43:57 And this is why what is, what is the- the good about this, this work is, um, trying to develop together a lot of time, um, the, the, the product together with the customer. Mm-hmm. Yep. 44:10 Shanti Bhushan says, "Is there a brochure for GPIC?" I'm sure there, I'm sure there is. Um, they have to go to pal.com to, uh, find that, or maybe Davide or Stephanie can put the link- Yeah... um, in the chat. 44:23 Um, now, Sylvia, you hinted, um, that Lallemand is exploring precision fermentation, not your particular business unit. 44:29 Um, without going into too much detail, what kinds of downstream technologies will be most critical to making those new fermentation processes scalable a- and commercially viable? 44:41 Um, so I think at the moment, if we look at, uh, uh, flavor, uh, as a precision fermentation output, uh, we work well with, uh, chromatography, so this is, uh, the type of technology we are utilizing at the moment and... 44:57 but we are always open to look at, uh, new, uh, technologies, um, to purify the product to have high yield, uh, to, uh, keep the quality of, uh, of the flavors intact. 45:11 So, um, we have, uh, uh, like optimization processing ongoing, uh, all the time. Mm-hmm. 45:20 Davide, when customers first approach PAL to, to optimize their setups, their downstream setups, where do you usually see, uh, the biggest quick wins if they exist? 45:28 Are they typically around reducing water or chemical use or improving membrane lifetime or something else entirely? 45:35 I would say a little bit of both, but, um, I mean, honestly, it depends a little bit on where each customer is in their, in their journey when, when we... when they reach out to us. 45:44 But, but, but there are definitely some recurring quick wins that we tend to see and, and the first is usually around clarification and filtration efficiency. 45:51 It's, it's, uh, when we are approached with, uh, for example, transmission-related issues, uh, we, we know we have a unique solution, uh, on the way to solve it. 46:01 And, and, uh, and then another big area is the water and chemical use. So by... and this by rethinking cleaning strategies, optimizing CIP recipes, we can see reductions in, uh, in, uh, water, chemicals consumptions, 46:14 um, without compromising members' clean water flux after production. So a- an increasing interest that we're seeing is, uh, around CIP recovery. Mm-hmm. 46:23 And, uh, and, and then when we have a good, uh, a great solution for this application as well. 46:28 And then last but not least, I would say members' lifetime, as you, as you mentioned, is, is, uh, it's, it's kind of a hidden opportunity. 46:36 I mean, once the process is stabilized and cleaning cycles are, um, optimized, members can last significantly longer a- and which directly cuts operating costs and, and downtime. Mm-hmm. 46:47 Stephanie, you mentioned in your presentation the importance of flexibility, um, in downstream design. 46:52 As new protein formats, whether precision fermentation or even hybrid systems begin to scale, are you seeing companies rethinking their downstream configurations maybe to accommodate multiple product types in the same facility? 47:07 Um, yes. 47:09 We have observed this trend, but rather in a context of a system initially designed to process plant protein recovery tailored to a specific raw material that was only available for a campaign for a short period, uh, during the year. 47:28 And to optimize the use of the fac- facility through- throughout the entire year, our customers now aim, uh, to use the same process line for recovering proteins from other plant sources as well. 47:44 Uh, and this approach makes it es- especially variable to have modular installations that can be adapted for different purposes on, on different project types. Mm-hmm. 47:56 Daniel, you, you're at the coal face at Ingredion, so we, we often talk about functionality in technical terms. But, uh, consumer perception ultimately decides m- market success. 48:05 So, so how much does sensory improvement, so taste, uh, aroma, mouthfeel, how much does that influence how Ingredion is approaching its process optimization for your plant-based proteins today? 48:18 I mean, it is at the heart of, of what we do, you know, 'cause I think, you know, ultimately you wanna have something that 48:24 is functional, that delivers that texture, but also-has the taste that is either akin to the benchmark. 48:32 And, and a good example right now is if you look in pastas and tortillas, areas that typically protein now proliferating and taking those systems and saying the 48:46 protein delivers X, Y, and Z nutrition func- genet- Now the... Let's say, I would say detractors, things that, that typically don't exist there. So how do we overcome that? 48:59 And so that's in, in design of the protein itself, and then what other helpers, you know, are gonna be necessary for that protein to interact with to deliver that outcome against that benchmark application. 49:12 Um, 'cause we, we can put out a very high protein pasta, but is the consumer gonna eat it? Heck no. And so we gotta f-find out where those linkages, both in the, the... 49:24 Needs the help, so that des- that design, that protein is suitable for the consumer. Mm-hmm. It's just breaking up a little bit there, Daniel, but I think I got, uh, the major gist of that. 49:34 Antoine, um, before we come to a round robin question for all of you to sort of tie things up, um, scale up, it often comes down to, to economics as much as engineering. 49:44 So how do you and your team, how are you modeling the trade-offs between, uh, yield, purity, and cost when you're designing hybrid purification systems at, at an industrial scale? Yeah. That's, uh... You, you know what? 49:56 That's actually the most exciting part of my job. 49:59 Um, 'cause from the very early stage, uh, you get to work hand-in-hand with the R&D team, with the process team, with the design team, with the, obviously, your industrial partner that is trying to get there to get, to get the, the all these numbers right. 50:15 And, um, basically, it's, it's really starting... Again, I'm, I'm answering a bit the same as earlier. Uh, defining the impurity profile where you wanna go. 50:24 You wanna have clear targets to start with, but it's not always easy, and you need to identify what needs to be addressed. 50:30 And from there, it's very often a, an interesting story of back and forth, trying to, from what you get at early stage, already do some good projection of how it's gonna look like at industrial scale. 50:42 How much it's gonna cost, what are going to be the operating costs, also very important. 50:47 And, uh, and then back and forth and, and then you, you, you do the work with that industrial partner, the R&D, the process, the design, and then you make it work. Um, well, there's quite a few questions there. 51:00 I'm not gonna be able to get through, um, any more of those questions, but I am gonna finish up with a, a round robin question for you. Um, I love looking ahead, um, so let's look ahead a decade or so. 51:10 What, but what emerging technologies or approaches do you think will most reshape downstream processing for, for protein production? 51:17 What innovation really excites you most, um, when you imagine the future of this industry? And I'm gonna pick on Antoine, um, and then you other guys, you've got a few seconds to, uh, to, uh, think about that. 51:28 So Antoine, what excites you most? Uh, for me, I see... I'm a DSP guy, but, uh, I see on the USP side the, the continuous fermentation maybe. 51:37 You know, smaller footprints, smaller impact, maybe better, better bucks on the, on the, on the investments. And that combined with, uh, continuous DSP obviously. That's, that's gonna be very good, very interesting. 51:50 And Davide? Yeah, I mean, food and beverage are changing fast. I mean, i-i- year after year, we see market bringing, um, new product and new challenges, right? 51:59 So I think what we need to do is, is first of all be ready to adapt or/and reinvent our technologies to, to the new challenges, and then we continuously innovate to stay on top of, of any need of, of... 52:12 that our customer may have. So i- i- ten years from, from now, it's... it could be the same as what we had ten years, uh, previous, uh, prior on today. So it's, um, it... We will see what the challenge bring us. Daniel? 52:30 I like the idea of precision fu- fermentation as we look at personalized human health. I think that's gonna be the big breakthrough in the next decade. Short and sweet. René? Yeah, so not to, uh, n-not to add to this. 52:44 I think, uh, uh, um, uh, because energy, th-that will be a major cost, so I believe that we will, uh, change from wet systems to more dry systems. 52:54 So maybe, uh, technologies ar-around dry fractionation or hybrid fractionation I think will, uh, will ma- will have a major impact. And Silvia, you've had time to think now. Yeah, yeah. 53:08 Um, I think one important, uh, part of all the DSP process is, uh, keeping the quality, um, of the product we'd like to have very stable. 53:20 So as an example, non-thermal drying or, uh, like really taking care of the polishing. If you look at the enzymes, it's, it's a very important step in the DSP. 53:33 Well, we started with Stéphanie, so we're gonna, we're gonna finish with you, Stéphanie. [laughs] Okay, thank you. Uh, yes. What I, I... 53:41 What I can say is that, and, and due to our experience, um, over the past decades, we have continuously advanced milk fractionation, right? Ensuring that all side streams are now transformed into valuable ingredients. 53:53 I think our goal is to replicate now the success with plant-based sources by combining technologies such as membrane filtration and chromatography, for example, uh, in order to, to, yeah, to mimic what we have done with milk. 54:06 So I think we can recover a lot in plant and, uh, and yes, now we, we just have to explore it and to do the max out of it, so. And thank you once again. No, thank you. 54:18 Um, unfortunately, that brings us to the end of today's session. A few gremlins in the system today. I don't know if you can hear the wind, but it is absolutely blow-blowing a gale outside. 54:27 Um, I have paid my internet bill. Don't worry about that. Um, huge thank you to our fantastic panel. 54:32 That's, uh, Davide, Silvia, um, Daniel, Antoine, and René, and of course for Stéphanie kicking things off with that fantastic presentation earlier. 54:40 And a special thanks to Pall Corporation for partnering with us on today's webinar. We really appreciate your support in helping make these discussions possible. 54:47 I hope you've enjoyed the conversation today and taken away some useful insights. If we didn't manage to get to your question, my apologies. Um, please direct those to any of our speakers on LinkedIn. 54:56 I'm sure they'll be happy to continue the discussion there. The full replay of this will be available very shortly after we finish, so feel free to share it with colleagues who couldn't make it live today. 55:05 Um, before we wrap, just a quick plug from me. Uh, the Q3 2025 edition of Protein Production Technology International is online now. It's our third anniversary edition. 55:15 It's a hundred and seventy pages, sixteen major features, and more than eighty new interviews from across the whole protein sector. 55:22 I'm pretty proud of that one, but, uh, I'll let you be the, I'll let you be the judge of that. 55:25 Now, coming up next, mark your calendars for Thursday, thirteenth of November, when we'll be back with another free to attend web- webinar. 55:32 This time sponsored by Merck, and that's entitled What's at Stake When Sustainable Food Isn't Safe. You can find full details and registration info on our website. Uh, until then, thank you for joining us today. 55:45 I hope you've had a great couple of weeks ahead, uh, and I'll see many you- of you either soon online or in person in Amsterdam next week. Um, at the end of this, there's gonna be a quick survey for you to fill in. 55:55 Uh, will only take you a few seconds. I'd appreciate it if you could, uh, let us know how we've done today. Take care, everyone, and goodbye for now. 56:01 [outro music] Thank you for listening to the Protein Production Technology International podcast. 56:06 We hope you gained valuable insights and knowledge about the innovative technologies and practices transforming how we produce protein. 56:14 Don't forget to subscribe to PPTI Magazine and follow us on social media to stay up to date with the latest news and updates. Stay tuned for more exciting episodes.
